In this episode of The Verdict is: Marketing, host Kim Sailer speaks with Denise Lehr of Kelley Kronenberg about finding joy and fulfillment as an attorney, even in a high-stress profession. Denise offers insights into overcoming job dissatisfaction, fostering a positive firm culture, and practical strategies for lawyers to market themselves and build a rewarding career. Whether you’re looking to thrive at your current firm or make a career shift, this conversation provides valuable guidance for long-term success and happiness.
Resources:
Learn more about Denise D. Lehr, Esq. – https://www.lawbard.com/about-lawbard/
Transcript
Kim: Hello and welcome to the Verdict is Marketing, the podcast of all things law firm marketing. I’m your host Kim Sailor, founder of LawBARD. Usually on this podcast we focus on marketing and business development, but today we’re going to talk about a subject that’s a little bit different. We’re talking with South Florida attorney Denise Lehr of Kelley Kronenberg about finding fulfillment in the legal profession, how law firms can ensure that they have a culture where attorneys can succeed, and ultimately what attorneys can do to market themselves.
Kim: Hello Denise. Thanks for joining us today.
Denise: Thanks for having me, Kim.
Denise Lehr of Kelley Kronenberg
Kim: Well, we’re glad to have you. Before we dive in, I want to share a little bit about you to our audience. You are the director of professional development at the Florida law firm, Kelly Kronenberg, where you create and implement training programs that help law firm lawyers both take their practice to the next level and help them be more successful and happier with what they do. While you began your career as a practicing attorney in New York and Florida, you eventually discovered that your true calling laid elsewhere within the legal profession. We’ll discuss this a little bit more in our first topic of finding fulfillment. You’re also a member of the Broward County Bar Association, a board member of the Justice Unit, a voluntary bar association, and a member of the Professional Development Consortium. Is there any other item I should be adding or anything you want to add to that?
Denise: Uh, no, I think you pretty much covered it.
Finding Fulfillment in the Legal Profession
Kim: Excellent. So, let’s get started on our first topic. There’s a perception that a lot of lawyers realize that they’re not happy practicing law and think about leaving the profession. In fact, I recently saw a Kiplinger report that stated about 25 percent of lawyers leave the practice within 10 years of being admitted to the bar.
Kim: Further, it’s been quoted that about 35 percent of lawyers suffer from depression. Denise, why do you think that is? And what do you think about those stats? The stats are sad.
Denise: Well Kim, you know This is a great timing for this subject because as you’re probably aware may is mental health awareness month. I think the stats are sad, but I’m sure they’re accurate. I also heard that about 36 percent of lawyers have a drinking problem. Yeah. So, I think the reasons are pretty obvious, high stress, billable hours, stringent guidelines, uh, deadlines, and being in fighting mode all the time, either with your clients or with the opposing council, and it’s a lot of responsibility that impacts people’s lives. All this constant pressure takes a mental toll. And I think that’s where all the, yeah, all the statistics are coming from.
Kim: Are there some resources for these attorneys?
Denise: There definitely resources that are out there for attorneys. There are a lot of them, but I think sometimes that attorneys are reluctant to use them and admit they need assistance. They’re used to helping people and not needing help. So, I think that one of the things that attorneys can do is to find out if their firm has an EAP program and then take advantage of that. The EAP programs that firms have are completely confidential. So, it’s a really safe place to go and discuss any issues that you may have and get some help and guidance. If you’re having some challenges.
Denise: But I also think there’s another factor at play here. Besides the fact that attorneys have to contend with all of these stress factors, you know the animosity, you know, just the fighting mode all the time, billable hours and things like this. Sometimes there’s also a lack of job satisfaction to begin with, meaning that you go to law school thinking that practicing law is going to be one way, but it turns out to be another way entirely. Maybe you go to law school because you think you’re going to make a lot of money, or maybe your motives are more altruistic, meaning that you want to have a direct impact helping individuals. But then when you get into practice, you see that it takes a lot of hard work to make a lot of money, or maybe you’re just not earning as much as you thought, or maybe you’re just in a field that does not give you that direct satisfaction of helping people. Like if you’re in, let’s say, insurance defense or corporate law. I was going to say, one thing that is important is to for you know some strategies for overcoming that feeling, first of all, of job dissatisfaction is to compensate for that and find some balance. So, what does that mean? It means that, what I always tell our attorneys, is once they start practicing and they’re like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know if practicing laws for me. It’s because of that lack of direct satisfaction of helping people sometimes. Especially when you’re helping corporations instead. So, what I tell them to do is to volunteer for a charity that they’re passionate about. You know, join an organization or association whose mission aligns with theirs and become a board member, an active member of that organization. Make sure they have hobbies or spend time doing things that bring them joy. And then, when they examine their life as a whole, rather than just assessing the job, you’ll see that they have the whole package. It’s all there. It’s just not exactly structured the way they thought it would be. So, you could have a career that pays the bills and allows for your lifestyle, even if it’s not you know, the most thrilling, uh, you know, sexy subjects. But then you combine that with things that do fuel your soul and energize you and that becomes rewarding. It’s all how you look at it.
Denise: And then for the high stress aspects of it that cause dissatisfaction. Self-care is very important. This will also help keep depression and anxiety at bay. So, practice mindfulness. Everybody’s heard that and they’re like, oh my gosh, what does this even mean? But practice mindfulness, you know, stay in the moment, do some yoga, find some quiet time for yourself to recharge. Even if you don’t feel like you have the time to do that, you need to find the time. That is for sure because you’re no good to anyone, clients or family, if your bucket is empty. So, you need to constantly be aware of filling up your bucket, so to speak. Getting rejuvenated. Getting your energy back up again and finding that joy. So, if it means waking up a little earlier, taking a walk, reading a book, painting, go to the beach. Whatever it is, you know, that floats your boat, so to speak, and fuels you. Those things absolutely have to be combined into your daily schedule and then just do the best you can. That’s all anybody can ask of you. So, I think, um, it all also comes down to keeping things in perspective. I have a plaque on my desk that says, strive for progress, not perfection. Cause I have to remind myself of it, it doesn’t all have to be perfect. You know, I’m going to do the best I can, and that’s all really anybody can ask. So, remember also to give yourself grace, be kind to yourself, as you would to any friend who came to speak to you.
Kim: Very nice. I might have to get one of those plaques for myself. So, you’ve gone on a little bit of a different journey too. Can you tell us a little bit about your own fulfillment experience?
Denise: Sure. I am an attorney. I was a practicing attorney. I practiced in New York and in Florida. I would say the main focus of my practice was employment law on the plaintiff’s side. And you might think that would be super fulfilling, but for me, it just wasn’t because of the cases that my firm was taking in were quite frankly kind of terrible. And so, I did not enjoy it. I did not feel like I was truly doing something that was fulfilling. As I said, you know, that, uh, vision that you have when you’re in law school and what you expect it to be, right? So, um, you know, I, I just didn’t, it wasn’t for me.
Denise: So, there was also no clearly defined career paths in the particular employments that I had. And the environments at that time, cause you know, not to give myself away here, but I kind of graduated law school quite some time ago, so the environment then was more of a sink or swim than one of mentoring, you know, and, um, and developing attorneys. So, I found fulfillment in helping lawyers find job satisfaction, first by being a legal recruiter, and next by entering the field of professional development. This was very important to me that I was able to find jobs, that I was able to use my JD, so that, you know, it’s not “wasted,” as my mom would say. Oh, my God, you’ve been to law school. You didn’t even, you know, what do you mean? You don’t want to practice law anymore. So…, but you know, actually every single career I’ve had since practicing law, I needed a JD to have that job. So, I’m very proud of being an attorney and in my current role as director of professional development. Inside a law firm, I find fulfillment in helping other attorneys find career satisfaction, which I did not have.
Kim: Excellent. So, I think a lot of the essential takeaways from this first section is to pursue a more balanced lifestyle, whether it’s work life balance, but what I like is despite the stress and dissatisfaction, there are numerous resources and support mechanisms out there to assist lawyers. You just need to be ready to take that first step and seek out those options.
Denise: Yes. And I would say, don’t give up so fast. You know, um, I don’t think I gave up too quickly, but some people do. They’re like, oh my gosh, this is just not for me. But maybe you just are in the wrong environment or maybe it’s the wrong practice area for you. Uh, there’s, there’s a ton of things you can do to explore a little further and see where you would fit in. What would more accurately align with your own career objectives and then go for that because there’s so many different variations of being a lawyer today, there’s a lot of possibilities.
Kim: Great insight Denise – we are going to take a break but will be right back…
Kim: All right, welcome back again, uh, to the Verdict is Marketing Podcast. Where we discuss all things legal marketing. Thanks for joining. I’m Kim Sailer of lawBARD and we are here with attorney Denise Lehr of the law firm Kelly Kronenberg. We’re talking about lawyers, who can we say, are having maybe a crisis of faith and looking to leave the practice and what those firms and those lawyers can do to find their passion back within the profession.
Kim: So, Denise, we got into things pretty quickly, are you having fun yet?
Denise: This is awesome.
How Law Firms Can Ensure That They Have A Culture Where Attorneys Can Succeed
Kim: Great. So, let’s move into our second topic discussion today. What can law firms do to mitigate the stats that we’ve just discussed and then kind of what’s in it for them to do so? And obviously, Denise, this is right up your alley, given your current responsibilities and background.
Kim: So, first off, do you think this is a big problem with law firms today or is this just all hype?
Denise: Look, there are plenty of law firms out there that do care about firm culture and their attorney’s growth and satisfaction, but there are many more that do not. So, remember the mentality is law is still a business. That’s the bottom line. And when you have this older, excuse me for saying, or more seasoned generation of lawyers running a law firm, the principles and management philosophy may collide with that of the newer, younger generations. That old school thinking is still very prevalent in many firms, which is, we have a great culture here. If you work hard, you’ll get your paycheck. Period. And that’s what they think you know, the culture is. Why? Because that’s how they came up and it’s hard to make the shift to the younger generations, you know, when they need career development and training and mentorship. And nobody provided it to them, to the older generation, so they’re like, well, I don’t understand. Why do they need that? But this is, yeah a very antiquated way of thinking. It’s antiquated, it’s inefficient and it will surely, in this day and age, result in attrition. So, it’s a very costly mindset as well. And that’s the interesting part, because often managing partners cannot grasp that if they put their resources, you know, the money into their people, it will cost them far less than the impending turnover will cost them by not doing that. I don’t know if you’re aware of this statistic, Kim, but approximately, every time an attorney leaves your firm, depending on their salary, it’s usually a minimum of $100,000 per attorney when you lose an attorney. And that’s for a variety of factors, which, you know, we can certainly go into, but that’s a lot, that’s very expensive. So, you know, they need to kind of get with the program and catch up with the times and know what the next generations are really expecting.
Kim: What could a law firm or the leadership of that law firm do to mitigate or minimize this issue or this problem?
Denise: Very simple. They can invest in their people. They can train and mentor their attorneys because the attorneys want guidance. They can give them feedback. Good constructive feedback. Give performance reviews. Make sure you’re doing those. One on one meetings. You know, uh, every week, keeping your finger on the pulse of how the attorneys are handling things and how they’re doing and what challenges they’re having. You know, provide relevant training to them, on, on different topics, you know, whether it be substantive or just, you know, critical soft skills. Make sure they feel like somebody is looking out for their best interest in helping them grow. This generation will not tolerate a sink or swim approach. They want to know how to do things right. So, and by the way, they also want transparency with regard to advancement. You know, how to achieve promotions and Partnerships. They want a clear roadmap to success. This generation also insists on work life balance. The majority will not sell their soul as we used to say for a paycheck. Quality of life is very important to them, so make sure that you’re not treating them like workhorses or they will go gotcha how to walk. You know they should also learn how to walk that fine line between being a micromanager and being an absentee manager. It’s funny because neither one of those will suffice. If your absentee, you know. In my firm, I know if a manager is or not. You know, just leaving them to their own devices, so to speak, they really don’t like that, but also, of course, they don’t like somebody on top of them all the time telling them what to do and how to do it. They want a little bit of autonomy. So, it really is a tricky fine line, um, you know, for, for managers to walk in a law firm. And, by the way Kim, if they’re remote, that involves an entirely different set of issues. That’s another whole story because it’s really difficult and, you know, as much as we all got used to being remote during COVID, it does present a lot of issues and, and managers have to kind of care about that and help with those issues and take stock in them. The other thing they can do is they can listen with empathy. If they, if your attorneys think you care. You will build trust with them. And when you build trust with them, that builds loyalty and commitment to the firm. One thing that any leader can always do is ask your people how they’re doing. Ask them and let them tell you what’s going on. That’s really the best way to figure out what exactly they need. It is funny how a lot of people sometimes just don’t ask.
Kim: Denise you brought up a couple of good points. We had a guest a few weeks ago, Scott Perry from Murray Guari Trial Attorneys, and he was talking about the importance of fostering a positive work environment culture, which led to having a supportive leadership structure, which were very important to him. And one of the things that he is addressing himself personally as a member of the Palm Beach County Bar Association Board is mentoring these young attorneys coming on board. He goes, it’s a big hole that needs to be addressed even within the bar.
Denise: Oh, 100%.
Kim: Scott would be agreeing with almost everything, I think, if not everything you’ve just said. So, uh, very interesting. You’re all kind of saying the same thing. So hopefully, leadership will listen.
Denise: Yeah, absolutely.
Kim: So, you’ve mentioned training a couple of times. Can you recommend any specific training or anything that the firm or attorney might do or take?
Denise: Well, I do. I think the first thing that any firm should do when, right from the part where the attorney joins the firm is on board them properly and integrate them into your firm. So, you want to introduce them to other team members, you want to have, you know, a social event, maybe when somebody joins you have, you know, a group lunch, or maybe you have a happy hour too, you know, celebrate the new arrival. You want to make sure that you know, these new attorneys start off right from the get-go with resources they need to do their job successfully. I have had numerous attorneys during our onboarding say they have never received such a great onboarding experience because that tells them right away whether they made the right decision or not. And they say that if an attorney feels like, when they’re joining a firm, if they feel like they’ve made the right decision or not right from the get-go, they usually will not be leaving within the first six months to a year. But if, right at the start, they start to doubt, oh my gosh, was this the right decision? It just becomes much easier for them to cut those ties later down the road. But you know, you can also do things that don’t cost a lot of money. You know, you could just show that you care about their development. You can train, just to answer your question, I kind of went a little off the track, but just, you can train in substantive legal areas, such as legal writing, deposition skills, motion practice, trial skills, client service, and billing practices. These are all things attorneys always need in some form or fashion. Some more advanced, you know, some, some less experienced, at more beginner level, but nonetheless, you would want to assess what the needs are, train in those and then train in those areas. And what that does is give them a whole lot more confidence in what they’re doing, and just makes them feel more comfortable, which helps them, you know, in a variety of ways.
Denise: Obviously, it’s less stressful for them, for sure. And it makes them stay put a lot longer. The other thing is those critical skills, I call them. Some people call them soft skills. But communication skills, time management, that’s a big one. I do a great time management session here, for actually for all the employees, because it’s just something that’s always in need. People are always trying to figure out how to manage their time the best, you know how to prioritize, how to organize themselves and things like that. So that’s all great, things that you can train your attorneys. And you can do leadership and management training as well. But all these things together show that you’re taking a vested interest. You’re investing in them and their development. And that will work wonders for you in the long run as an employer. Communication skills are absolutely essential to communicate with everybody, people hundred percent, those communication skills are, uh, just absolutely essential for, for all attorneys. And, you know, you need to communicate with everybody, people on your team, obviously, you know, your partners, you need to communicate with clients, with courts, you need to have those communication skills for sure. And all of them, they, they’re all super important. And you’re right. Most people, most firms might stay with the substantive skills. because, you know, it just, they see that as the most direct, you know, direct impact maybe for your team. But the others have a direct impact as well.
Kim: Absolutely. So, what is in it for partners or law firms to implement these suggestions and solutions? What’s in it for them?
Denise: Oh, what’s in it for them? Very simple. Less attrition and less turnover. So that means a better reputation in the community. You don’t want to be known as the evolving door type of organization, which means you’ll have an easier time recruiting and retaining the superstars that you want on your team. It’s also better for client service. You give better client service when you have a consistent staff that knows the files. Which means more business flowing in, which means more revenue for you. So, there’s a lot in it for law firms to do this, to make this investment in their people. To say about happy and healthy workers.
Kim: Oh yes, exactly. As a follow up, I would think that it might be somewhat easier for a large firm, like Kelly Kronenberg, to invest and roll out a lot of the programs that you suggest. But what about some of the smaller firms? What can they do?
Denise: So that’s such an interesting question actually, Kim, because it’s, it’s funny that, you know, not everything you do has to cost a fortune. There’s so many things you can do. You can bring in lunch weekly or monthly, or even take a new hire to lunch, or take your team, somebody on your team, maybe you alternate once, once a month or something, taking somebody else on the team for lunch. You can create Teams chats with your team. My team has a team’s chat every single morning, we all say good morning to each other and then throughout the day, you know, we’ll say, oh my gosh, this just happened, or did you, you know, We’ll keep each other updated as to what’s going on in the firm, you know, update them on news or for example, somebody had a question today, so she threw it on the team’s chat, And the person who had the answer, you know, immediately responded. It keeps us all together, even though we’re in different offices. Some people are working from home today. You feel like you’re part of a group, and you know it’s just a very small investment to make and it’s really a great thing. You should have team meetings at least once a month at a minimum. Get the whole team together. That doesn’t cost much. You can sit in the conference room. Everybody can even bring their lunch if you don’t want to, you know, bring in pizza or salad or something. You can be a mentor or assign a mentor to a less experienced attorney. So, you know, either be a mentor if you, I don’t know how small the firm is that you’re referring to but even firms with just a few partners. Either assign one of those partners or a senior associate to be a mentor to the less experienced attorney that helps their leadership, and it also helps, obviously, the mentee who’s going to need a resource. So that kills two birds with one stone. You can have your own partners conduct internal training on needed topics, so you don’t always have to pay outside vendor or outside consultants to come in and teach. Use the wisdom and the experience of those that are already on your team and let them train on topics that they’re comfortable with.
Kim: Very good point.
Denise: Yeah, I mean, you could train on things like deposition skills and drafting motions and things like this. You could also encourage networking activities and memberships and take them to events. Let them shadow you. That doesn’t cost anything. Well, I shouldn’t say that because obviously if they’re shadowing you, that’s probably not going to be billable as well. But nonetheless, in the long run, if they get up and running faster in a particular area, then that does, does, pay for itself in the long run. But another thing is, and I mentioned this earlier, you even, you know, doesn’t matter what size firm you are what attorneys want is, and I ask all of our attorneys, I meet with all of our attorneys after they started the firm for about six weeks, right? And I make sure they get settled and they make sure they can you know, talk to me now in context with what’s going on in their new team. And I asked them why they left their previous firm to come to Kelly Kronenberg, because I want to know. You know what their objectives are and to ensure that we can meet those objectives. And almost all the time, the answer is, there was no growth there. There was no development there. I didn’t know how to become a partner. This, I just talked to one of our newer attorneys, a very senior associate actually, and she had no partnership path where she was. They weren’t clear about it. It was very murky and, and she didn’t really know how to advance there. And that was it. She left. So that’s super important to them. Another thing you can do is encourage breaks. Let them know that they’re not just a number. They’re not just a turn and burn, you know, tool for you. But that you, you actually care if they get burnout. So, encourage them to take breaks and encourage people to take their PTO. That might sound counterproductive, but it’s really not. You know when somebody is well rested and you know rejuvenated and has their bucket filled up again, if you will. You know, they come back stronger and better than ever.
Denise: Celebrate achievements. That doesn’t cost much. You know, give a nice pat on the back or maybe a shout out to the whole firm. Acknowledging a win somebody had or something great Thank You that they did.
Denise: Make sure when you give feedback that It’s constructive if it’s negative. That’s super important to It’s all how your demeanor, how you say it. Not even so much as what you’re telling them, but it’s the way you’re saying it. So, there’s, you know, really good ways to find out really how you can give the most constructive feedback if you have some negative information to pass on to them about their performance. And then again, I’ll say, that, you know, this is super important, ask them how they’re doing. Any size firm can ask that and show that they care. You show that they, you care about the development of your team, they’re going to be more loyal to you and therefore turnover will be a lot less. And they’ll be happier, and that’s a lot of what we’re talking about today as well.
Kim: Absolutely. I can’t imagine not taking vacation. That is a must.
Denise: Oh, it’s a must. I know, but sometimes attorneys feel like, you know, I don’t know, they think they get more points of something at the end of the day if they don’t and they run themselves into the ground. No, you don’t. You need to take your break. It’s super important, especially with all of these issues – mental health issues and stress and anxiety that, that are, that this profession is enduring right now.
Kim: Absolutely. So, kind of the main takeaways from this segment is that law firms can enhance attorney success and satisfaction by fostering a supportive culture focused on work life balance, including things like mentorship, professional development, which all will lead to a reduced turnover and employment, and improve firm performance. Excellent perspectives, Denise. These were great.
Kim: We’re going to pause for a moment, but please stay tuned and we’ll be right back.
What Can Attorneys Do To Market Themselves
Kim: All right. We’re back again, here at the Verdict is Marketing podcast, discussing all things lawyer marketing. I’m Kim Sailer of LawBARD. Thanks for joining. We’re here with attorney Denise Lehr of Kelly Kronenberg. We’re talking about job satisfaction and what law firm management can do to promote a healthy work and firm culture and attorney growth. We’re going to pivot a little bit right now. So Denise, since this is a legal marketing podcast, we’re going to switch gears. We talked about the issue of lawyer happiness in the profession. We’ve talked about what law firms can do to help minimize the situation and ensure a strong work environment. But on the flip side, sometimes a lawyer just needs to change the scenery, and needs to find either another law firm or sometimes something altogether different. In this situation, Denise, I have two questions for you. My first question is, what should a lawyer do or look for to make sure that they don’t end up in the same situation or state of unhappiness that they’re trying to get away from? You know, kind of, the grass is greener, rose-colored glasses are on. What are your thoughts on that?
Denise: Well, the first thing I would do is actually take stock and find out what is important to you. What are you looking for? What are you dissatisfied with at your current firm? And what are you hoping to get at your next opportunity? Make sure you’re clear about what you want, okay? And then, interview them. Remember that it’s a two-way street. You need to ask those questions. The right questions about their work environment, their manager style. Why is the position open? What are the expectations? What is the day in the life of the position? Make sure you pummel them with questions, so that you know that you’re making the most informed decision that you possibly can, because it’s super important. You don’t want to go from the frying pan to the fire. You want to do your due diligence, and do not ignore those red flags. Go with your gut. If something doesn’t feel right, you know, don’t just say, Oh, I’m sure it’s not that bad. And You know, I’m going to, I’m just going to take the job, because if you do that, if you have that I’m just going to take any job, you know, kind of mentality, you’re definitely going to wind up unhappy there too. You’re going to end up leaving in short order, and then you’re going to have this, like, resume that looks like you jump from place to place, which is never a marketable situation.
Kim: Absolutely not. I’m always interested and amazed that, when a lot of people go for interviews, they don’t consider that they are also interviewing the company that they’re with. They just assume they’re being interviewed, and they don’t prepare for it. So, I think that’s a very important thing you highlighted today, should be adhered to. My second question is, what advice do you have for a lawyer to maximize their marketability and land in a good situation?
Denise: Well, I, um, I think they should stand out and distinguish themselves. I would tell them to write articles, to conduct client seminars, to provide great client service, no matter where you are, you know, currently, or how you feel about your current position. Make sure that you are always giving it your best, because your reputation will proceed you and clients actually do hire their attorneys. So, you know, always make sure you’re putting your best foot forward and giving that great service no matter what’s going on, you know, in your current situation. The other thing I would say also is don’t be a jerk to opposing counsel. They actually come back around and want to hire you one day. Just be respectful at all times, be professional. That’s very important because you don’t know who you’re talking to necessarily or what, you know, what can be down the road for you. What opportunities they might be able to present. This happens all the time. So, you know, make sure that you’re always acting professional. You’re never stooping to that level that would be considered unprofessional. That’s also a great way to have your reputation pristine out there so somebody, you know, wants to call on you uh, later on and you know, maybe hire you themselves. The other thing is I would say join the right organizations and associations and distinguish yourself by becoming an active member.
Kim: So, what do I mean by the right organizations?
Denise: Don’t just join everything and say, oh I’m a member of all these things. Why isn’t this working? Because if you’re not, I always recommend to our attorneys that they are joining things that they are passionate about, that they have an interest in. It’s going to make you that much more engaged, which is going to make you stand out even better. And then be that active member. Don’t just be a member of something. You know, try to get on the board of, of the organization, or maybe on one of their committees and do something you like. I always love to work the front desk. You know, when I’m having an event, let’s say for Justice Unit, and I sit on their board, I love to work the front desk because I get to meet everybody. Everybody knows me. I know them. To me, that’s just a really good way to get your name and your face out there. You have people know you without actually asking them for anything. You’re just signing them in, let’s say, at an event. I always think that’s a great place to be. Go out there and go to events, go to conferences, and don’t just make contacts, build relationships with people. You know, take an interest in them. Listen more than you, you you’re talking. You know it’s hard for attorneys to do that but definitely a good tip. To Listen more than you talk and build relationships. And then, you also, of course, you know, social media. Update and maintain your LinkedIn profile. Make sure all your skills are on there, and all your successes are on there. That’s probably all I can tell you about LinkedIn though. I’m going to leave explaining that to the marketing experts such as yourself.
Kim: That good. I would add that you should update your LinkedIn profile, making sure your website bio, even your CV are current. I’m amazed at how many times lawyers don’t keep those up to date. And it’s almost like all you’re seeing is your college. And you’re like, there’s so much missed opportunity of information that they just don’t seem to realize they should keep up to date.
Kim: So I think those are great and your tips about some of your events and conferences and things was really good. So great advice there, Denise.
Kim: We’re going to step away briefly, but don’t go anywhere. We’ll be right back after this short break.
The Verdict is Marketing lightning Round
Kim: Okay, once again, this is the Verdict is Marketing podcast, discussing all things lawyer marketing. Thanks for joining. I’m Kim Sailer of LawBARD. We’re here with attorney Denise Lehr of Kelley Kronenberg. As we come to an end of the show, it’s time for the Verdict is Marketing Lightning Round.
Kim: Denise doesn’t know this. So, Denise, are you nervous?
Denise: Should I be? I don’t know what is happening.
Kim: I’m going to mention five words or phrases. And you’re going to give me what comes to mind, top of mind for each. Sound simple?
Denise: Yes,
Kim: Okay. Job fulfillment.
Denise: Work environment.
Kim: Okay. How about work culture?
Denise: One word, huh?
Kim: Oh, it can be or a whole thought.
Denise: Oh, okay. Um, you know, people centric.
Kim: Nice. The next one, personal development versus professional development.
Denise: Kind of those soft skills. Yeah. I was going to say career um, you know, minded versus, you maybe more of spirituality and things of this nature,
Kim: Mentorship?
Denise: Helping, sharing your, your knowledge, sharing your wisdom. Super important.
Kim: The last one, best advice to a new lawyer. Besides, don’t do it.
Denise: Ha. Just always remain professional, ask for help when you need it. Don’t be afraid or ashamed to ask questions. It’s the only way you’re going to learn. Everybody was in that place before you. And you’re going, there are going to be times when you’re going to have imposter syndrome. Uh, you’re going to feel like, I don’t belong here. I can’t do this. But that is absolutely not the case. Have confidence that you are where you are for a reason and that people thought you were deserving and qualified for, for the role. And then just sit back and not get stressed out and try to find those little pieces of joy in your everyday practice. I think I’ve answered all your questions, at least I hope I did. And it was a pleasure being on your show. I really appreciate it.
Kim: Thanks so much Denise. There were several things we didn’t go into today. I hope you will come back to the show to discuss?
Denise: I would love to.
Kim: Excellent. We’ll be sharing more resources and tips over on LawBARD.For everyone out there, thanks for listening. Feel free to drop me a line at Kim@LawBard.com or visit us at www.lawbard.com. Until next time, the Verdict is Marketing is adjourned.
